[Dada exits Builders Express, Randburg, carrying a bunch of stuff]

Dada Khanyisa [DK]: When you go to art stores and hardware shops, you see things you hadn’t considered for a work, and it adds to the excitement. 

Sven Christian [SC]: How much impulse buying do you do?

DK: I think it’s like forty percent. Sometimes I get stuck with an idea, and I have to stop myself if it feels like I’m moving too fast or too certain. I have to take a step back. 

SC: Is it primarily different wood types that you’re buying?

DK: I frequently visit antique shops, hardware shops, art supply stores… With antiques, I like small objects — they can add an interesting element to the work — a brass lamp… those kinds of details. I also buy objects outside of art making; objects that might spark or add to the idea. I just like to immerse myself in objects. I like to go to the Milnerton Market, because you never know what you’re going to find, for close to nothing. 

SC: Your work in the context of this exhibition is quite unique, in terms of your collage process. 

DK: Yes, I call it “collageal” — like, “collagey.” It’s the idea of using different materials to put a visual together. It borrows from the paper format of collaging, but using wood — different textures, colours, all of that. It also depends on the material. Sometimes you have to supplement by painting, which brings it all together. Someone made me aware that my work is a collage, where different formats are used to make up a uniform image. 

SC: But it’s different in the sense that collage with paper undergoes a flattening process. You can use different colours, tones, or lines that are pre-existing to create depth. Whereas yours is collage, but in three-dimensions, where, depending on where you stand, certain areas might be obscured from view.

DK: Spatially? 

SC: Yes. It’s why I also like the idea of you making standing sculptures. 

DK: Yeah, I mean, that’s probably how it will translate. 

SC: How would you compare your earlier works? It feels like they’ve become a lot more intricate with time — adding more layers, but also when it comes to your choice of materials.

DK: As I grow I approach it with more looseness, as far as what can happen goes. I have the basic idea on paper — which is the most resolved — and then I break it down with the use of wood and all the other materials. Like I said, sometimes I have to supplement. When I can’t find the right species of wood I have to paint the desired effect or source a fabric that’s going to suit; whatever flattens it, contrary to the outcome being three-dimensional. 

SC: When you’re making those decisions about texture, colour, form, what are you going for — a particular mood? 

DK: Yeah, it’s mostly a mood. Sometimes I dial myself back and restrict the palette or tones. For this programme I’d like to lean into the natural colours more; the colours I’ve been exposed to here — a lot of the earth tones. It feels aligned to the NIROX experience, the NIROX “brand” — the linen, the beige. I’m drawn to creating work that highlights or borrows from the spaces I’ve been in. 

SC: The drawing that you made for this work is beautiful in its own right. It’s a lot more detailed and resolved than the others I’ve seen in your sketchbook, which read as being more instructional —there’s going to be a circle here, a triangle here… 

DK: When I arrived I had a different work in mind, but it didn’t feel like the right approach for this exercise. The challenge was to create something during this time, and see what comes from this experience. I borrowed the hand gesture from that drawing and then simplified it, because I’m also into that. You know that series by Picasso, called Le Taureau (1945–6) — a lithograph series of the bull, where it’s like a reductive process? I think I was inspired by that, where forms are broken down into simple shapes. It’s very appealing, stimulating, when work does that, so that’s one reference point; simplifying it and making that specific to this task. 

SC: What I like about that, too, is that the hand is very detailed, right? It’s quite a complex piece of carving, so the hand is not altogether reduced in that way, but becomes pronounced against the backdrop of other, more simplistically rendered forms. It makes the gesture pop out, and gesture is something that you seem to use a lot.

DK: I think I owe that to my background as a trained animator. Like, I learnt how to use the body to communicate, and hands are quite talkative, you know? Hands say a lot. I speak with my hands. A lot of artists dread hands — whether it’s painting, drawing, or whatever; people avoid them — but that’s the most communication you can get out of a figure. The hands and the face, and maybe the body language as a secondary communicator. Hands really drag the point across. I thought I was one of those artists who hate hands, but I actually love them. Now I have such an interesting relationship with them… My hands are different. I play around with them; different formats and renditions. That’s how I get the attitude across. 

SC: I liked what you were saying about the body language aspect. It reminds me of our conversation the other day, about embedding different sort of codes or references in your work. Like when I saw one of your works that had that painting from Ganesh in it. It was immediately recognisable, but it’s so specific.Anyone who has been to Ganesh will recognise it. It’s very localised. So there are degrees of access and familiarity. People can still resonate with the overall mood of the sculpture — people having drinks and all that — but someone who has had drinks at Ganesh can relate on a different level. The question of one’s intended audience feels quite present in a lot of your. This is also true of the other artists on exhibition, like Xwalacktun — when I look at his work as an outsider I don’t automatically know that the salmon represents this or the spindle whirl represents that. Those are also works made in community, so people come and there’s a ceremony, and interestingly, there is an aspect of ceremony to your work too, but the ceremony predates the making — it’s the inspiration. 

DK: You contextualise it in such a beautiful way, but it’s that process of people watching, and allowing life to inspire the scene. A lot of it is also made up. I’ve had to lean into that a bit more. What makes art-making special is the made up parts, you know? It can be beautiful to paint in a photorealistic way, but it does something to paint in a way that only you paint, so I might take a lot of screenshots, download a lot of images — there’s always a background story — but the visuals that bring it together are also made up. 

Going back to form, I’m also interested in rendering these almost industrial shapes with organic material; using wood to create super sharp edges, or using super industrial composites to create the skin, the face… Those composites are used for fixing car bumpers. They’re meant to be tough. So using that to create these organic forms.

SC: You gave an example of painting in your description earlier. Do you consider your work very painterly — like frescos, or?

DK: I describe the work as sculptural paintings, or painterly sculptures. Because I enjoy painting. It brings the work together in a different way, sculpturally — it can be flat. So I’m interested in where painting and sculpture meet. I try post the two in my work, but I’m still trying to learn what to apply on surfaces for a lasting effect; how to treat canvas. 

SC: But your background in animation also plays a big part. Like when you’re using different anchors or vectors or things like that… It’s a digital process but it translates quite easily into sculptural form. 

DK: Yeah. I used to create illustrations at first, for the more intricate work. You know how the sun sits on the face, the highlights it makes? It’s interesting to add that to a three-dimensional face, even though a three-dimensional face catches light on its own. You don’t have emphasise it, but it’s nice to actually add those in.

SC: What draws you to social gatherings, as a form of inspiration for your work, whether the focus is an individual, two people interacting, or a group?

DK: Growing up I had social fantasies. I grew up as an only child, and I’d daydream about hanging out with people, about being out. There’s something about South Africa or Joburg that celebrates Happy Hour culture, like Phuza Thursday. A lot of the propaganda has to do with getting people out and getting them drinking. I was groomed under that system. I’m not much of a drinker but I like being out with people. Until not so long agoI was socially awkward, so I’ve always considered myself a voyeur. It felt like watching people from a distance, until I realised that these are people I hang out with. 

SC: So it’s about where you draw energy, in an introverted / extroverted way? 

DK: Yeah, it’s so important. It’s important to retreat too. 

SC: And for you, that’s to the studio? 

DK: You know? I really really enjoy being out, borrowing from the outside, bringing it inside,  resolving it, because it comes with its own drama. People are layered. They bring a lot, so there’s a lot for me to take back home. 

SC: I guess the messiness of it also lends itself to that fragmented or collageal form. 

DK: Yes. When I say I borrow from reality, I almost water it down or add more toxins… It’s a mixture. That’s where the collage comes in. I borrow from what’s immediately accessible. 

SC: Last question: from the conversations that have been had, outside the formal structure of the workshop, is there anything that’s stood out; are there particular moments or exchanges that have resonated? 

DK: There was a conversation that Simon and Ben had, about Limpopo and the naming system. Collen also told me his father made his carving tool, so he never has to buy. He goes home and gets it from his father. There are all of those nuggets. It’s an interesting mix of people, because it’s both traditional and contemporary. I feel like I’m the youth. I have not inherited any tools. This is a passion that I adopted. I taught myself how to be passionate about wood, and had to pursue it individually. I’m not part of a community, in that way. Even Simon’s dad sculpts wood. His daughter is also interested. I guess maybe Collen’s work is a bridge between the traditional and contemporary that I’m speaking of. But Simon and I had a deep chat about the spiritual, and leaning into intuition, and I agree. There are not a lot of people exploring or carving into wood. It can feel like such a dated tradition. So I also asked questions about where they get their ideas. Do they draw, you know? I have to find the idea before I make. That’s where my relationship with the work starts, when I’m compiling things. It was interesting hearing that, and people from the north of the country approach it as a spiritual medium, which I find fascinating.